Speaker 1: 0:39

It's what happens when you're eating the chocolate and you're saying only one more square, only one more bite, just this row, and then I'll be good. The desire for chocolate is so overwhelming, is so constant that I think we need to talk about it. And at some point you think effort, I'm just going to finish the pack, so it's not going to be here in front of me, and that's that last supper mentality.

Speaker 2: 1:06

Eventually you got to a point where I was like, okay, I actually don't need that extra row. You know what? I'm actually happy having just like a couple of squares, Like I'm satisfied, I can move on. There was a time where I felt so out of control with chocolate that I would just always avoid buying it, like I would never, ever keep it in the house. But I also worked at a supermarket. I worked at Coles.

Speaker 2: 1:40

So anytime I worked at Coles after my shift I would get chocolate. It was usually like a whole block and every single time I would get home and I would eat the whole entire thing in one sitting and I just thought this is exactly why I can't keep chocolate, because I ate the whole thing. I remember there was a time where I had like four shifts in a row and after every single shift I got a block of chocolate and I ate the whole thing. I remember there was a time where I had like four shifts in a row and after every single shift I got a block of chocolate and I ate the whole thing. Sometimes it was like a block and a half. It was insane. And then eventually it clicked. I knew what I was doing wrong and once I started doing this, everything changed and now I can actually keep chocolate in the house and not have the whole thing. It's amazing.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of no Wellness Wankery. I'm Lindy Kowin, your dietitian nutritionist and lover of chocolate, and I'm joined by a fellow nutritionist, Natalia Jala.

Speaker 2: 2:43

Hi Lindy, Also a fellow lover of chocolate over here.

Speaker 1: 2:47

Thank goodness, and as you could tell from Nat's story, you've had quite a relationship change with chocolate over the years. And I got to say I've had the same kind of thing One birthday my brother I would have been about 12. My brother knew how much I liked chocolate so he bought me one of those humongous Nutella jars, like it was like a novelty.

Speaker 2: 3:08

Oh I remember those.

Speaker 1: 3:09

They're so good that I ate that Nutella jar at such a pace and I felt so sick, but I couldn't stop myself. I just had to eat it. And I have had very creative ways of eating chocolate over the years, One included I would get Coco Pops and then I'd get Milo and I'd mix them together but then eat it dry and it was great, but it was also. I would just have that and eat that in secret and it was a thing. So I've always had a bit of a curly relationship with chocolate and we're going to talk about why that is, why that might be happening for you, if you're listening, and what to do about it.

Speaker 2: 3:46

Yeah, no, I love this topic. I remember I definitely used to feel like I'm a hundred percent addicted to chocolate. So, like, why? Like where does this all start? Why do we actually feel addicted to chocolate?

Speaker 1: 3:58

Well, firstly, on this whole idea is can we be addicted to chocolate? I think this is a very interesting question. It certainly feels like we're addicted to chocolate, because why can't we stop? I always think about it like this I think it's very fair to say you can be addicted to substances that you don't need for survival think cigarettes and alcohol.

Speaker 1: 4:13

We don't actually need those things. You do need food for survival. So telling yourself that you're addicted to something that you intrinsically need for survival is not quite right, and the research backs me up on this. There are a few scholars who would say that you can be addicted to chocolate. It doesn't really matter, though. The point is, you feel addicted, and that is what we need to focus on Now. Unlike other addictions think drugs or alcohol we can actually just remove those things. I say just like it's easy. It's not easy, but we can remove those things and you can live a healthy life without them.

Speaker 1: 4:47

But with chocolate, what we often find is that, by eliminating chocolate, you simply increase the craving for the chocolate, and we see this repeated again in study after study after study, where we actually make this food feel very highly palatable, and you're going to say to me but I am eating it. I'm not restricting it. I'm eating so much chocolate. And I think this is where we need to differentiate between physical restriction and emotional restriction, because these are different things.

Speaker 1: 5:12

So physical restriction is when you're going what Nat did, I'm not buying it, I'm not going to have any chocolate and physically, not having it in the house, not giving yourself permission to eat it, trying to be good. And then emotional restriction is much more sneaky. It's what happens when you're eating the chocolate and you're saying only one more square, only one more bite, just this row, and then I'll be good, then I'll be done. Or you eat way more than you planned and then you promise yourself you're not going to eat chocolate and next time you eat chocolate it's like the frenzy has become amplified and that is what has happened. You are basically throwing gasoline on your craving for chocolate by creating this restriction.

Speaker 2: 5:55

Yeah, no, I think that makes total sense. Like, the more we tell ourselves we can't have something, the more we want it. You know this happens with not just chocolate, with all foods. Okay, so why chocolate Like? What's so special about chocolate? Why Like, why?

Speaker 1: 6:09

It's delicious. Actually, research shows that women tend to crave chocolate more than men, which I always kind of thought interesting. I don't actually know why, and researchers don't seem to know why, but I will attest that, as a woman, I find it mightily delicious. Dark chocolate, just from a health perspective. I know we're often here that this is a very healthy thing to be having. Now, dark chocolate is a rich source of polyphenols, and that's just, my friends, a fancy way of saying plant nutrients, good stuff that makes your body thrive. And I got to say, though, this does seem to be related to chocolate that has an 85% cacao percentage. That's pretty high. I don't know about you, it's not my go-to. I'm not really reaching for an 85%, it's quite bitter, very bitter.

Speaker 2: 6:54

Definitely not a 85% gal.

Speaker 1: 6:57

Not for joy.

Speaker 2: 6:58

Not for joy.

Speaker 1: 6:58

No no, and I got to say I don't think chocolate should be there for nutrients. If you're eating chocolate for nutrients, I think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel and I think rather think about ways to add more nutrients into your diet and don't think about things like that's technically confectionary as a source of nutrition. Sure, if you're already so high up the nutrition bandwagon, you're like I'm doing everything, I'm nailing it. I would like more. Sure, make the swap. Why not? In terms of the hierarchy of habits though, it's right up there at the apex, it's not one of those essential things to be doing. So, just remembering that, why chocolate? You want to be making it something that you actually find satisfying, because that's what's also going to help you feel like. You feel like the craving goes away once you've consumed it. So if you really want the Kit Kat or the Snicker or the Milo and Cocoa Pops, then I say rather eat that and eat that with full enjoyment than trying to make the healthier swap. That doesn't quite feel like it hits the spot.

Speaker 2: 7:53

Or the high protein chocolate Like no, please do not try to get your protein from chocolate. Please, I beg you. It is not worth the money. It is not worth it Like, it's not even worth the taste. You can get your protein from a lot of other actual food sources than chocolate.

Speaker 1: 8:10

What about those low sugar chocolates that give you diarrhea? Fun and games.

Speaker 2: 8:15

And they have that really gross aftertaste, Like it's just not satisfying. It's not what you want. You want to be having chocolate for enjoyment. It's to bring joy in your life. You know it's something that you have because you like it, not because you want to be healthy and healthier and not have sugar.

Speaker 1: 8:31

Yeah, and also I remember that I used to have these diet chocolate mousses. I don't know if you ever remember them.

Speaker 1: 8:44

It was my Weight Watchers days and each one was a point and so I'd go for them and that really did not satisfy. It didn't hit the spot and they were like the sugar-free kind of thing and I was like I needed six of them and I still was left wanting. So have a think about that, particularly if you are going for these sugar-free chocolates that are diuretics and you're binge eating on them and then you're getting diarrhea. Oh, and you're binge eating on them and then you're getting diarrhea. Oh, my goodness, my sister, my friend, you do not need to go down that rabbit hole. Instead, we're going to give you a few strategies, but first I want to talk a little bit more about where these cravings come from, because the desire for chocolate is so overwhelming, is so constant, that I think we need to talk about it.

Speaker 2: 9:17

Okay, so is there more to it than blaming your sweet tooth?

Speaker 1: 9:20

Well, a sweet tooth definitely contributes to it. I know some people have preference towards savory and some towards sweet.

Speaker 2: 9:27

I will take chocolate over cheese any day, a hundred percent. I'm definitely like a sweet craving kind of girl, yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:35

And so I think that's something to be said. I think we all have an inbuilt natural preference. There's certainly a lot to be said about what happens when you're growing up and you're getting rewarded with foods. So think about culturally. We celebrate with sweets very often, so birthday cake is a very prime example, and almost at every single function. I mean, I'm Jewish, and so food is life. Family and food that's what we are. We have food at every occasion and that's just gets amplified. If I did something good or bad, I would get rewarded. As a kid, with food and chocolate was a very effective lever. As a parent now, I already know how easy it is to use a smartie to lure my son into doing what I want. I really try avoid this. I have other episodes where we talk about how to not do this and fall into this trap, but I think it is something to recognize is how you were raised, the relationship your parents had with food and how you inherited part of that, because this can also contribute to your preferences.

Speaker 2: 10:32

And also lack of sleep. So we know that a lot of cravings do come from not having enough quality sleep. That's when your body's kind of like okay, where can I get a source of energy from? And usually that's from food, and sugar is the quickest kind of source of energy. So that's when your brain just goes okay, I need something now. What's convenient to me? What's going to give me that energy quickly? Chocolate done.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Spot on, and cortisol as well. So having higher stress levels, I mean technically, aren't most of us a little bit stressed? I definitely go through stressful periods but I certainly find that my cravings for chocolate do increase when I feel quite stressed and the degree of emotional eating I think I find chocolate soothes me. It's definitely my go-to when I'm emotional eating and it's almost like that craving for chocolate. Sometimes I stop and I wonder what are you really craving here, lindy?

Speaker 1: 11:24

Because I know you're craving chocolate, but what are you missing? Are you missing rest? Are you missing relaxation? Food is not joy, food is not comfort. It is none of these things. So what do you actually need right now? This is quite an elite level. I've only learned to do this skill quite recently, but if you can ask yourself, what are you actually seeking?

Speaker 1: 11:44

Let's talk about the gut microbiome, because, wow, this is an area of study that is just going gangbusters. What we're discovering, and what research has suggested, is that a lack of lactobacilli in the gastrointestinal tract is which is basically you think of it like a live gut bug. This can actually cause sugar cravings, and so you're going okay. Well, how does this actually work? Well, it's because this gut lactobacilli produced the neurotransmitter, something called GABA. And what does GABA do? Well, high levels of GABA make you feel full, and low levels of GABA do the opposite and stimulate your appetite. So if you don't have this live gut bug, it's not going to give you the right level of GABA, which is making you either really hungry or really have huge cravings for something like chocolate.

Speaker 1: 13:02

What's the solve then? You go well, how do I fix that? Lactobacilli can be found in yogurt, and only those that have an added probiotic to them. So what you can do is have a look for the yogurt and flick to the back and see that it has, like you'll see, lactobacillus has been added to it, and that's just a good thing to do anyway, if you are dairy intolerant. Of course, there are also lactose-free options that have lactobacillus added to it.

Speaker 2: 13:27

Okay, that's all great and I think that's very, very helpful to know. You know, like, the reason why we do crave chocolate and what we can actually be doing. But I think another thing that we're missing here is a lot of the time it's a habit, right. We've learned to do these over the years. It's a coping strategy. You reach for chocolate when you're bored, you reach for it when you stress. So can we actually unlearn those habits and can we replace them with new ones?

Speaker 1: 13:53

oh, we certainly can. I mean, we talk about this a lot on the podcast, talking about conditioning and how very easily we can condition ourselves that every time we flick on our favorite tv show, you might notice those cravings start to fester and next thing you know you're skipping to the pantry to go and retrieve your favorite snack. And if you're going oh, this does happen to me, and most nights this happens to me then we know that we have conditioned ourselves. The other thing you might notice is you're finishing lunch and you're going oh, I really want something sweet. In fact, nat, we just had lunch together and I went here we are here we are enjoying a delicious little.

Speaker 1: 14:28

Easter egg, which is delicious and I love it, and so I think occasionally this is going to happen. When you find that this is your default, you are always turning to these options. That's when we kind of go this is just a habit and these habits can be broken. Now it does require us to go through a period of discomfort. So you might go oh listen, actually I'm going to try and either swap to something healthier as opposed to a chocolate after lunch, or you might just go listen, it's just an Easter egg, it's not a big deal, and I will just move on with my day.

Speaker 1: 14:58

If you find that you can't just stop at one Easter egg and the next thing, you know, it's like 20 Easter eggs later. That's when we go okay, not only is this conditioning, but there's also the degree of restriction which is making you really crave that chocolate even more. You know I talked about that emotional restriction. So perhaps you're going oh listen, I'm only going to have this one Easter egg. Oh, I can't have any more. You reach for another. I promise this is the last one and at some point you think F it, I'm just going to finish the pack, so it's not going to be here in front of me and that's that last supper mentality in action. So this is what I think I really want to focus on for the rest of this conversation. So then, how do we break this habit, this really strong desire, this feeling of going? I can't just stop after having a little bit of chocolate. I need to have a lot of chocolate.

Speaker 1: 15:47

I think a really key one is we talked about this eat the chocolate you really want. Then changing how you eat it. Now, I think when you find that you are secretively eating your chocolate, that is an alarm bell, a little sign to say there is clearly emotional restriction going on, because I feel ashamed of other people witnessing me eating the chocolate. Thus I am judging myself eating the chocolate and thus I am basically encouraging myself to eat more chocolate next time by doing that. So what can we do? Very clearly, I talk about this in Binge Free Academy, which is my program.

Speaker 1: 16:21

If you struggle with binge eating and you feel out of control of food, please go and check out Binge Free Academy. But what I do teach you how to do is to integrate something like chocolate and to give yourself permission to do it and, ideally, eat it in front of other people. So often we reserve our favorite foods, like chocolate, for something we think is naughty or secretive. Maybe if it's even just our partner who will eat in front of. We won't eat it in front of other people. And when we're out, we're making those healthy choices. No, I don't want dessert. Oh God, yes, when you really do. And so then we got to flip that dialogue so that when we are out with friends and family, that's when we're sharing the chocolate, as opposed to when we're secretively hiding our Easter eggs and the wrappers.

Speaker 2: 17:03

I really, really like that tip. I think a really easy way to do that is start with, if you go out for breakfast, for example, order the chocolate croissant I know you want it, I know you want that hot chocolate Just have it. After dinner, grab an ice cream, chocolate ice cream If it's just like going to the supermarket and getting your favorite chocolate and enjoying that with your friends or your partner. And getting your favorite chocolate and enjoying that with your friends or your partner, whatever it is, just having it in public around other people and just taking out that label of it's bad. I can only have it when I'm alone. That's really going to be helpful. I know it sounds so simple, but it really, really does work.

Speaker 1: 17:39

Spot on. In addition, can you change how you eat it? We want to get out of that noisy brain, that little food thoughts going oh no, we shouldn't be eating this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She's very loud that voice.

Speaker 2: 17:53

She's very irritating.

Speaker 1: 17:55

I want you to become aware of those thoughts, that little restrictive voice. In fact, one of the things you can do is you can start to create a new note in your phone where you're going to go, add all of these little food thoughts that you have, and just start to record them down, because I think it's near impossible to be a mindful, intuitive eater when you have your brain is doused with all of these food thoughts, and that's what I want for you to become a mindful, intuitive eater. What I'm talking about here is not just full permission to eat chocolate whenever you want because you feel like it, because it's in front of you, because it's delicious, because, if that is the case, it will lead you to feeling very uncomfortable in your body, and I just don't want that for you. What I am talking about, though, is a mindful enjoyment of what you're eating. So, as you said, with a pan au chocolat, delicious, my friends.

Speaker 1: 18:36

Please go enjoy, but make an occasion out of it. Go to the cafe and sit there and enjoy it. You're in public now. People can see you and enjoy it slowly. Don't think to yourself. I'm only allowed this as one time. I'll have to be good for the rest of the day. I want you to eat it, to really taste it, to be there with it and then move on with your life. Eating, mindfully, is a really big pillar of intuitive eating as well, so we can't do one without the other. Inside Binge Free Academy, which is my program I just mentioned, we have life group coaching calls, and one of the women inside the life group coaching call asked me the question about what happens when you create an occasion out of eating something like chocolate, like, let's say, you're like I can't wait to go and eat a chocolate croissant, and then it doesn't live up to your expectations and it's not as you imagined it and you feel like you'd saved up all this.

Speaker 2: 19:30

You romanticize it. You're like, oh, it's going to be perfect, what do?

Speaker 1: 19:34

you do. Well, I think there are a few things at play here. I think if your food thoughts are so out of control where you're kind of like constantly thinking about okay, I can't wait to have this croissant, and it's going to be so good, and you're creating a movie in your mind about what this croissant is going to look like and how it's going to taste, that's too much. It's a lot. We've got to pull back. We pull back.

Speaker 1: 19:53

Food should not be the highlight of your life. Food should not be the highlight of your life. You eat to survive and sure, there must be enjoyment and joy and beauty in food, but it should not be the highlight of your day. And I remember when I felt like I was crazy around food, it was the highlight of my day. It was the one thing I looked forward to. I couldn't wait for my binge, I couldn't wait to eat the Nutella, I couldn't wait to get the croissant. Now I'm able to also just look forward to having the croissant and for it not to mean so much. And once you break free from the thinking that, oh, I've only got so many calories and therefore I need to use them so wisely, it takes the pressure off this experience being so important because you know. You know what? If I actually really felt this was a disappointing experience, I can go tomorrow to another pastry place and I can go get something that is really delicious.

Speaker 1: 20:44

You know you have that freedom and flexibility and you're not saying, oh, this was a waste of calories. In fact, I want you to every time you hear that phrase oh, this was a waste, I just don't think it's worth it. I want you to go oh, that's restrictive thinking and we're not going to think like that anymore.

Speaker 2: 20:58

That's a very, very toxic phrase to use. Yeah, please don't do that.

Speaker 1: 21:05

Nat, you mentioned at the start that you've come stupendously along the way with your relationship with chocolate. Was there anything that you feel made a big shift for you?

Speaker 2: 21:10

Yes. So I actually started thinking of like, okay, what can I add to not eat a whole block of chocolate and still feel full and satisfied? So instead of, you know, restricting it and restricting myself to saying no, I can only have one square, one little bit, I was like, okay, I'm going to put on a plate as much as I think I want. So it was usually like a row, maybe two rows, you know, nothing like too small. And I would also add like something like fruit, some crackers, some popcorn I really really liked popcorn, it was just so easy. Popcorn, I really really liked popcorn, it was just so easy.

Speaker 2: 21:48

And then I would sit down and eat it no TV, no distractions, and like we talked about this before. But it really did make such a difference because here I was just sitting there slowly eating the food, enjoying it, thinking about it, thinking about how it actually tastes, the textures, the mouthfeel, and really at that same time, tuning into my body and thinking, okay, do I want more? Do I want that extra row that I have on the plate, or am I happy? And eventually it got to a point where I was like, okay, I actually don't need that extra row. You know what I'm actually happy. Having just a couple of squares, I'm satisfied I can move on. That also came from a place where I wasn't just looking forward to the chocolate at the end of the day. I had other things in my day that already made the highlight. So I think what you said is so important. Like we don't live to eat Okay, we eat to live.

Speaker 1: 22:43

And even in that example, even if you did put half a block of chocolate on your plate, you're still way ahead.

Speaker 2: 22:50

Exactly. It's still a win, even if it's just like one row off. Yeah, a whole book. Small steps, small steps. Don't put the pressure on yourself of going from 100 to zero.

Speaker 1: 23:03

I think the trap when you go I'll just finish it now so I don't have to have this in the house. This is very important. Let's address this. I think the way to get rid of this thinking is to always have a constant supply of chocolate. If you believe by eating all of this I won't have it in the house anymore, well, of course you're going to go. I'm just going to eat it all now.

Speaker 1: 23:23

So we talk about this idea of having the three block principle, and that is where you have three blocks of chocolate or whatever it is that you feel a little bit out of control with. And so you know and you truly believe anytime I want this food, I can go have it. So there is no need to eat the entire chocolate right now because there's more waiting for me and I can have more now, I can eat more later. And it's once you fully, truly believe and know this that it starts to feel like a choice and you go do I really want the chocolate right now? And sure, I might like the taste of chocolate right now, but I can change it. And on this idea, I just want to talk about this idea of can you change your taste buds. And let me know if you guys want a whole episode on this thing can you change your taste buds? How do you change your taste buds? Just very quickly, I'll say that with something like salt. What they found is that to reduce our preference for how much salt we have, going cold turkey can be the quickest and most effective way, and there's certainly research to back up this idea that the less sugar you have, the less cravings you have. What I find problematic with a lot of this advice is people say well, I didn't eat any processed food or any chocolate and my cravings went away. You're not going to live like that forever. At some point you will reintroduce that food and therefore the cravings will come back. So we need something far more sustainable than that. What we can do is we can, with time, with making small, subtle changes, reduce our personal preference for how sweet we like things.

Speaker 1: 24:44

I remember when I was just came out of dieting, I had to have a decaf coffee at my mom's house and I needed two sweeteners in it. I needed that sweet hit and then I thought one day, well, maybe I'll try to get used to a little bit less sweetener. So then I moved to one sweetener and then I thought, well, actually I think I'd prefer to have sugar over sweetener. So then I swapped that to sugar and then I got to the point where it was half, and you know where this is going everyone. She's now at a point where I prefer coffee without the sweetness and, as a result, once you start to slowly taper away the amount of sweetness you have in all the things that you have, you actually prefer it to be a little bit less sweet.

Speaker 1: 25:24

However, telling yourself I'm not allowed to have sugar in my coffee actually does the opposite. So it is such a psychological game we're playing with ourselves. When you go, it has to feel like a choice. You have to decide. I would actually like to see what it would be like to have coffee. Can I get to this point? And within a few weeks you will get to a point where your taste buds start to shift and change and now, genuinely, you have a new preference. But this will not happen if you still got all those food thoughts and all those judgments running a wreck and a riot in your brain, making you feel emotionally restricted. All right, everyone. I hope you found today's episode helpful and thank you, natalia, for joining me. I'm delighted to have you and we'll see you here next week.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Thanks, lindy, and if you have found this episode helpful, we'd love to hear from you. Please leave a review. Let us know what did you think. Are you addicted to chocolate? Did you find these tips helpful? If you are going to try them, let us know in the comments. We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 1: 26:21

All right, everyone, we'll see you next week.