87: I quit dieting, but I’m gaining weight. (Part 2)

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello, hello, my name is Jenna DePiece and this is the no Wellness Wankery podcast. Welcome, I like to say. I haven't said that to many people before when we start these episodes. If you are new, welcome. We are so excited to have you here. I am joined by the lovely Lindy Cohen.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Hello hello everyone, welcome back. If you are coming back to the podcast and hopefully you are and you've listened to episode number one, because what we're doing right now is a part two, if you have not listened to part one, go listen to it. It's episode number 86 and this is a bit of a full-on conversation because this is a curly topic and Jenna and I were just having a huge chat about it before we hit record, because it's a bit of a murky and complicated one. So this conversation is going to be just that. It's a conversation as we try and ask each other questions to try and get to the bottom of this.

Speaker 1: 0:51

We actually Lindy gets a lot of questions about this exact same topic because so many people and I'm in the same boat. We had one from Penelope talking about how you start intuitive eating and you're going well and then you feel like you're gaining weight and then you want to stop and it's how do we charge through this? And we talked about it in the first part like, is level one helping with your heal, your relationship with food, and then how do you know when you'll finish level one per se and how do you move on to the next stage? This is the tricky part.

Speaker 2: 1:21

We're going back to this conversation because I think it's huge and I've never heard anyone else talk about it like this, and so bear with us as we kind of examine it all together. Jenna, in the episode 86, you gave us the example of a dinner time with your partner. Can you take us through it?

Speaker 1: 1:37

Yes, so I was. My partner was bringing home dinner. It was supposed to be at normal dinner time and it ended up. He didn't get home till like 10 o'clock, any. All the shops were closed as they obviously would be at 10 pm, and he brought home fried food and I was. First. I was like, oh okay, well, this is the food and I guess I have to eat it, because when I'm trying to be intuitive, my brain's telling me well, this is the food and normal people don't worry about what food's given to them and they just eat it. But then I'm like is that helping me feel good? Probably not. And then it's hard to distinguish between what's a healthy habit and what's me saying I don't want to eat the food you just bought. Is that making me on a diet? This is where this is the murkiness.

Speaker 2: 2:27

Yes, so, jenna, you ate the food and you enjoyed it. Yeah, you didn't feel guilty about it. No, I was freaking proud of you, thank you. And what we said in the last episode is like that is a humongous milestone. What this says to me is that Jenna is in that level, one phase, and she's very deep in it, and they're healing your relationship with food phase to be able to have something that was previously so off limits, to have it, and to have it without guilt, without shame, when previously these demon, these voices in your brain would have been going. You're not allowed to have this. This is bad for you, but what would the voices have said to you?

Speaker 1: 3:03

Yeah, 100%, and I think they would have said this is I would have like been failing for eating this and I actually think I probably would have previously eaten a lot more of it than I did. I feel like I would have gone a bit crazy with it because it's like, oh, you shouldn't be eating this and that makes you eat more. So I think I actually ate less than I probably would have normally. I felt that when I was doing it and I didn't feel guilty. But then this is where I was kind of torn with it, because when you say, like things that don't make you feel good, it's like hard to know what the symptoms of that are, because I didn't feel guilty and I didn't feel any emotions about it and also I kind of just went to bed and forgot about it. So it's hard to pinpoint, like where that food didn't make me feel good, when obviously it's not the best food for my body.

Speaker 2: 3:50

Okay, yeah, we really need to dissect this. So what happened later in the week after we recorded that episode is I left you a voice note and I was like okay, I think I've got it. I think level two might be when you go all right, well, let's say he brings home the fried food. The question I guess you ask yourself is am I hungry at this point? And you know, you and I talked about it and you said I actually wasn't that hungry.

Speaker 1: 4:12

Yes, and this is another tricky part of the level one, level two transition, because my brain would tell me but you have to have dinner because, even If, because the old me would have been all I've pushed it so far I'm not hungry for dinner anymore and taking that as like a win For not having a meal where. So now again, the new me is like, well, I should I be. This is, I can't even know. You know what I'm trying to say. It's very hard.

Speaker 2: 4:39

It's almost like the pendulum has to swing the other way in order to allow you to come back into equilibrium. I remember once I stopped dieting. It was a bit of an F you to die culture. I kind of just felt like F you know, middle finger up to your food rules, I'm going to eat the food I'm going to like, I'm just like whatever, I can finally eat whatever, and there was this kind of like act of rebellion against it all. And that was a moment, and that moment you might be in that moment If you're listening. That moment can last for a long time. I guess what I'm saying is, after a certain point you might shift back into like a bit more of the equilibrium, when not every piece of health advice feels like diet culture, and I think this can take quite a long time for you to get to. Now I would say, if you hold on to this desire, this idea that all health advice is about weight loss, if you keep having that thought, then I think it is very, very hard to ever get to level two Now.

Speaker 2: 5:41

Level two for me is I can eat fried food whenever I want. Am I hungry? Yes, no. Will this make me feel good? And now let's talk about that from a symptom perspective. I'm not thinking how many calories in this. I'm not thinking, oh you know, that's bad. Fried food is really bad for me. I'm not even thinking about it like that. I just know if I eat quite a bit of fried food it doesn't make my stomach feel good. I think I get this like heaviness and I was saying to you before when you started recording, I used to be able to eat like a whole jar of Nutella and not have any symptoms of my body from it, like I wouldn't feel it, and people be like, oh my goodness, that's so rich for me. And I was like I literally don't know what you mean when you say that's so rich for me. Now I do know what people mean when they say it's too rich. I have a point, a set point in my body where it goes oh, that's just tipped over my richness set point and I start to feel even a little bit nauseous in my body. Now my tolerance for that that was a lot higher when I was binge eating and I think your set point for what kind of flavors you like and tolerate changes as you go.

Speaker 2: 6:49

So what I'm talking about is when I say feel good in my body. Okay, I'll give this example of like having choosing what to order off a menu. So let's say I'm like okay, I'm choosing a burger and chips is delicious and would be really satisfying. But I know, if I had a burger and chips for my body personally, I would probably feel a bit sick after having that because of where my set point is, for that I would actually feel nauseous, wouldn't make me feel good anymore. So that's when I say when I wouldn't feel good, I'm literally talking about a physical sensation in my body that I now experience, that I didn't use to experience because I think I had all these rules and regulations around what I shouldn't, shouldn't eat. So I eat the burger and I can't explain, but I would not even have that feeling.

Speaker 2: 7:31

Nowadays I don't have to go to myself oh, you shouldn't have the burger and chips because you know it's high in calories or whatever. I just go. I physically don't. That's not what I want, that's not going to make me feel good. So I might. And what I often do is I'll share the burger with my husband because it's going to tick my burger box and then I'm still. I'm going to share a salad because I know that's what's going to make me feel good and it's a compromise because I kind of get like the best of both worlds. This choice has nothing to do with my weight. It has everything to do with how I'm going to feel. I'm currently in a life of, in a stage of life of wanting as much energy as I can. I don't think that, I don't think that desire to lose weight is dirty. I think it's a normal response. Can we just talk about that quickly?

Speaker 1: 8:17

Yes, this is the important part.

Speaker 2: 8:20

Yeah, in the non-diet world it's kind of like you know it to be with us, to hang out with us. You have to never think about wanting to lose weight, and I think that means a lot of people end up ditching non-dieting because they feel unseen and they feel like you're not going to help me. So it's like what if there was kind of a middle ground where we're focusing on healthy stuff where a side effect might be weight loss, but it's certainly not the goal? Janet, what are your thoughts around this?

Speaker 1: 8:46

Yeah, it makes you. Just made me think of the example of you know, like when you see like some really fancy gym and it's like, oh well, I'm not that fit, so I'll go get fit, then I'll come back to the fancy gym Like that's what it feels like. It's like this intuitive eating thing sounds really cool and freeing, but I'll just dip out for a second, go and lose some weight, then I'll come back and then I'll be food freedom and everything will be really great. That's how it feels.

Speaker 2: 9:09

Yes, so I just bought on. So I actually feel like we're missing a lot of people by not having better conversations about it. So if you have that desire to lose weight, there's nothing wrong with you or bad for you. I do think it does prevent you from losing weight. I will put that out there. Not only do I think that that desire to lose weight prevents you from losing weight. If you go and you start trying to lose weight with a diet, I think it makes you gain weight. So I think that's just this thing to kind of be mindful of.

Speaker 2: 9:33

The position I want everyone to get to is the idea of they're going. Okay, I would like to lose weight, but it's not the reason why I'm going to be doing these things. Yes, and I'm not going to feed that voice that tells me I should lose weight. In fact, I'm going to hear it. I'm going to neutrally hear it, I'm going to give myself compassion when I hear it, and I'm still going to do actions to get healthier. And this is level two. Level two is about being healthier. It's about making choices that make your body feel good and not making it about weight loss and not triggering that restrictive thinking.

Speaker 1: 10:04

Maybe that's the thing that you're saying is like you can make choices that are still to make your body healthier, which is not necessarily about losing weight.

Speaker 2: 10:13

Yes, and the side effect might be weight loss. In fact, there are 101 ways to be healthy that don't involve dieting, and majority of those are going to have some influence on your weight.

Speaker 1: 10:26

Yeah, I see I think that is something you've actually never said before because I feel like sometimes I can't be thinking about losing weight, so that food spine, because I can eat whatever I want, because that's what you're trying to get into, but then you don't want to say, well, I can't eat that because I want to lose weight. But if it's something like, oh, I don't really feel like eating that because I know it probably, as you said, might sit really heavy in my tummy and then I won't have energy for the rest of the day, like a peak, which happens to me sometimes. If you eat something for lunch and they're like oh, and then I just feel sluggish for the rest of the afternoon, then I don't go for a walk and then I feel even worse when it's really not about the calories or the food that you actually ate, it's just a ripple effect of the rest of the day of how I feel.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Jenna, this is spot on, and that ripple effect to the day can also bleed into the week which can bleed into a month, and so what we're talking about is this greater thing when I talk about this idea of sitting with the discomfort. So, like I got gifted this whole bunch of cookies, I enjoyed a cookie. Later that night I had another half of a cookie and then the next day there was a cookie sitting there and I was like I do kind of want this cookie. But then I was like, okay, but this is a craving and I don't think having another cookie is going to make me feel better or good. And so I sat with the discomfort of not having the cookie, because I knew that it was either the discomfort of not having the cookie now or having the cookie and then sitting with the discomfort of how that made me feel, which was not going to feel great.

Speaker 2: 12:03

So when I say this, I'm not saying it from a point of cookies are bad. You know that's not the case. I'm still allowing myself to have these things. But yes, there is a point where I go. You know what. I can make different choices now, but it's not someone else telling me I have to make those choices.

Speaker 2: 12:19

I'm in the driver's seat of my body. No one cares what you put into your mouth, like. I know people comment about your body and all this things, but genuinely you're the only one who gets to decide how this body of yours feels what you put into it. And once you've kind of stepped out of diet culture, you're in that level one. That's when you start to discover there is choice again and that's when you go. I can eat the fried food, the burger, the chips, the cookies, anytime. What's going to make me feel good? And sitting with any little discomfort that you might feel and go. Which discomfort do I want? The discomfort of wanting something and not having it temporarily because I can have it any time I want? Or the discomfort of how it might make me feel afterwards, which is nauseous, heavy in my stomach or whatever. Or high cholesterol, or messing with your blood sugar levels? There could be other things that you might be going. Listen, I know that I'd like to make changes there.

Speaker 1: 13:17

It's kind of like something that has popped into my head is like I would sometimes have like an ice cream at night time, like after dinner, and then in the last like six months or so, I've kind of felt like ice cream just before I go to bed doesn't really make me sleep that well, because it's like this little sugar hit before bed. So then I haven't actually not been having the ice cream because I'm trying to cut it out. I'm just like I won't really have it before bed. So then I've not really been eating it at all. But then randomly last weekend we were just sitting around the house and it was like 11am and I was like I kind of feel like a magnum, and before I would.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Normally, if I had a magnum at 11am two years ago then that would send me into a spiraling binge because it's like you can't sit in the house and have a magnum. But it's so different, it's like no, I just feel like it. But I don't really feel like it at night time anymore because I know it kind of stops me from going to sleep. Yes, jenna.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. This is the slow evolution of realizing there is choice, allowing these habits to morph, and listening progressively more and more to your body and to your stomach and responding Now, the more I think about it, I'm thinking about this as a pendulum swing, right? So non diet, diet culture is like you're very far in the one extreme. To stop dieting, you kind of have to swing all the way back, where you kind of go nah, screw all the health advice, I can't handle any of it, I'm, it's toxic. And this is the slow journey back to that equilibrium, the place where you can take health advice and not see it as an attack and a front and still, at the same time, not fall back into that diet culture thing where you're chasing weight loss. You were asking me a bit more before about what my journey looked like.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Yeah. So I was wondering, like when you say, when you gave up dieting, you're like I can eat all the burgers I want, and now you're like burgers don't make me feel good, Where's the gap in the middle there? Like, is it you just discovering that burgers don't make you feel good, or through these little mini experiments that you do with life, Been like when I ate that I didn't feel like great afterwards. How do you get there?

Speaker 2: 15:27

Yes, so there was a point where, just post dieting, where I could eat like a burger every single day. In fact, I think that was an important part for me and I did, and were you still thinking about weight loss, though, because you can't just automatically remove those thoughts from your brain.

Speaker 2: 15:43

No, and I think this is a really important question. I always had this little, this desire in the back of my brain to to diet, to lose weight. I was like I just need to lose weight. That voice did not go away. In fact, it was still really loud. What I did is I actively said you know what voice? I've been listening to you for a decade. I've taken on your advice, I've done your strategies, we've played games, we're done, I'm done, I'm done listening to you. So you can still be there and you are still going to be there, but we're it's time to do it my way. And I was so proud of myself, the way, that I would very often ignore that voice. And don't get me wrong, there were so many times during this process of learning how not to diet that I went back into diet land and I was like, oh no, I'll just lose weight quickly and then I come back to non-dieting. No, I was right. No.

Speaker 1: 16:38

This is it, because sometimes I don't think we talk about that enough. That and then you feel a bit guilty with the twinge of wanting to lose weight is still in the back of your brain. So it's so good to say like it's not just going to disappear like an instant.

Speaker 2: 16:49

No, in fact, what's tricky is, as you're kind of going through this phase of going I have to eat a burger every day because I have to break this diet noise, I have to. I'm in this huge pendulum swing where I've come the other way and people go. People do gain weight, not everyone. Some people lose weight, some people stay the same and some people gain weight and all is that is normal. And then that diet voice, the weight loss voice, she gets louder and she gets angrier and you feel that compulsion to listen to her more. And it's this very complicated, murky middle ground where we have to try the hardest to keep coming back to what we know is the non dieting principles, and then there is that hope of going.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Now let's move on to level two, and I think perhaps what we've never given the picture of what level two looks like. And level two looks like someone who eats when they're hungry, and we're talking about this as well. We're talking about this idea of I don't eat the same thing every single day. I do not eat at the same time every day. I have days like if I have like a non hungry week, like I have a non hungry week at the moment, like last night. I had a piece of toast for dinner and you might go, you know you might go. It's got nothing to do with weight loss or calories or diets. I just was not very hungry last night and I just couldn't stomach that much. So I had a piece of toast and I listened to my body and that's all all it could handle. And other nights I am ravenously hungry.

Speaker 2: 18:15

But I think that's what we fail to do when I say listen to your hunger. If you are actually listening to your hunger, you're going to notice there are days when you're just not that hungry and there are days when you are ravenous, and what we should be seeing is changes in how much you're eating in response to that. And I think a lot of us, we end up eating pretty consistently and around the abouts the same, just because it is meal time, which is like the example of you having dinner at 10pm because the food was there, you didn't want to feel restricted, even though you weren't really that hungry. This is it. So we have to not be scared of feeling hungry and I think if you've just come out of dieted land, hunger feels scary. I like feeling hungry a few times a day. Every time before you eat, you're meant to feel hungry.

Speaker 1: 19:33

Yeah, because that's you're ready to eat. But I suppose, like with my question about dinner, like I would have felt hungry and then the hunger went away because they waited so many hours. So should I eat, or really? Or is my body being like we were hungry, but now it's so late? We're now starting to rest, so we're shutting down for the night.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Yeah, that's how I was just about to respond with is, if it was lunchtime that this was happening at, I'd say you know, you've still got a huge day ahead of you eat, but it's 10pm at night. Your body is going into rest mode. Your body is about to like rest and digest and store and do all the important things. Therefore, you do take that kind of stuff into consideration a little bit.

Speaker 1: 20:16

Yeah, because I suppose it's not like our bodies do have energy reserves. It's like your body can be like oh well, we're starting to pack up shop for the day, so we've got enough to get us through the morning Like we're going to be OK.

Speaker 2: 20:29

Yeah, and if you wake up the next morning and you're really hungry, it's a very interesting micro experiment. And this is what I'm talking about with these experiments. I'm saying now you can kind of play around. Once you get to level two, you go OK, I know that I can eat this dinner at 10pm at night. What if I do a little experiment where I see what happens if I don't? Do I feel restricted? What if I have something else, if I feel, or what if I don't eat it? And then how hungry am I going to be tomorrow?

Speaker 2: 20:56

This is what I'm talking about. You have to feel and I think this is about food safety you have to be at a point where you feel enough safety around food that you can have these micro experiments, because I don't think you can have it before. Then I think it all feels restrictive. But once you have that sense of trust, you can start doing these experiments that I always talk about. We were talking about as well, like how you've added swimming into your mix of stuff. It has zero to do with weight loss, right?

Speaker 1: 21:23

Yes, I just really enjoy doing it, and so that you write, sometimes you still like I'm enjoying it, but that doesn't mean that I want to go every time and I still kind of have to like force myself a little bit because I know that will make me feel good. Yes, no, it's not for weight loss.

Speaker 2: 21:38

Exactly so. This is what I'm talking about with the discomfort. Now it is OK to experience moments of discomfort, because the discomfort of not going for a swim for next, not exercising is less energy. Your mood's not going to be as good, your sleep won't be as good, exactly so. There is that discomfort, or there's that discomfort of going. I really don't feel like going for a swim, but I know it's going to make me feel good, and you sit with that discomfort and you make that happen. So we're choosing these discomforts in our lives, now or later. You just you get to make that decision, or what kind of discomfort will you choose? So then we talked about as well in the last episode this idea of you want to cook more or you want to meal prep more. Can we get into that? Because I think that is a huge, awesome thing to want to undertake.

Speaker 1: 22:28

Yes, and I actually, since we chatted, I have done this more and I have, funnily enough, noticed my energy levels have been higher, because I think, with preparing my meals, I'm probably eating more and giving my body more energy. Because I think sometimes if you buy a little thing at work, if you get like a little sandwich or something, they're generally like very small, with like not many vegetables and not much to it to actually give you energy, whereas if you've made your own lunch, it's full of veggies and good things, then I feel like, oh, I feel like energised from my food.

Speaker 2: 23:09

I love this and you also save a heck of a lot of money. Yes, and I think getting frequent takeaway it doesn't make me feel good, it doesn't make my wallet feel good, it doesn't make me feel like I'm on top of my life. So also there's something that like if that's just like one thing, you focus on getting a few meals under your belt, somehow it can start to feel like the whole rest of your life feels a lot more integrated and sorted.

Speaker 1: 23:40

I think that you're bang on there about that. It's sometimes you could, even if you go and buy the healthiest salad of all time that is making your body thrive, you still feel like a bit of a failure because you're like I can't even prepare my own food. So even though if the meal is perfect and ticking every macronutrient health box, you're still like not on top of life. So when you're like, oh, I've made my food like a functioning adult. It just keeps you a little, gives you a little bit more of a pet.

Speaker 2: 24:11

I totally know what you mean. I think it's a very worthwhile thing for us to be focusing on. When I talk about the hierarchy of healthy habits, which I do in my book your Weight is Not the Problem you will see that cooking at home more I'm not messing about it is one of those. It's near the ground, it is a very essential habit, along with eating enough food, which is very much a core habit, a very like baseline, fundamental. But when cooking at home or if it's something you can experiment with, because I'm now to a point where and guys remember, this has been a very long time since I quit dieting I'm now at the point where I'd say how often do I eat out? I don't know. I'm in this weird season of life. Maybe I eat out like twice a month.

Speaker 1: 24:55

You also are at a very different stage of life.

Speaker 2: 24:57

I am in a different stage of life, but I, exactly I'm in a very settled, sorted. My kids wake up at the same time, they go to sleep same time. My life is very routine and monotonous, exactly, but I really feel good doing that and I don't. I'm not setting this as like this is what we should aim for, but I know that when I was getting like, I used to eat out like five nights a week, I don't know, I just didn't feel as amazing and I spent a heck of a lot of money.

Speaker 1: 25:24

Yeah, you don't feel as good. And even with things like at work, if I pack more snacks, like in terms of like I'm really into, like apple and peanut butter is like making me sing and I just love it, then I then don't feel like I need to reach for another coffee because I'm getting my energy from food. Yes, I.

Speaker 2: 25:46

We talk about this a lot, this idea of giving yourself permission to eat enough during the day, and a lot of people want to. Someone on Keep it Real she talked about having the ability to pack enough snacks. She added you know the extra snack and what a difference that made. So chances are checking are you eating enough food during the day? Packing that extra snack and it does take a little bit of prep to go. Okay, I need to take my peanut butter and I need to have my apple and I need to have that sorted. That is a very healthy snack as well, but you're not seeing it from a weight loss perspective, right?

Speaker 1: 26:18

No, I'm seeing it, it's. It's making the whole rest of my day better to have like a snack in for my energy levels. And then you get home from work and it's not even like, oh, I don't have the energy to cook dinner or all of those things, because you've got more energy to carry on.

Speaker 2: 26:38

Yeah, we're taking willpower out of the equation when we do these things. Once we get these habits under our belt and we focus on the habit with you know, we don't have to make that decision multiple times a day because the snacks just sitting there waiting for you. So it's not like, oh, am I going to go, get, go and get a snack or another coffee, your snacks. Just she's there, she's ready for you.

Speaker 1: 26:59

Yeah, and also on this, on that topic side side, noting a little bit on the coffee, like if you work in an office I've learned this, I never knew this you can also just go for a walk around the block, because that is great, because sometimes like, oh, but I just want to get out and get some air, and then I'm going to coffee and then the coffee makes me oh, too much caffeine and then I slump. It's like I could also have a snack and then just walk around the block for five minutes and breathe some fresh air and then come back into the den.

Speaker 2: 27:27

Yeah, it's like when people I remember when everyone was quitting smoking, you know, a few decades ago they used to complain about the fact that the reason they like going for a cigarette was because you get that five minutes where you get to be outside by yourself, no one bugging you, yeah, and people like you're still able to do that. You can still go and do that without the cigarette, so you can still do that without getting the coffee, and not not drawing parallels between smoking and food, don't get me wrong, but you can still go get that headspace. I really like that. Jenna, how do you feel about this conversation that we just had? Do you feel like there are any other questions that you have? I'm sure there are, but have some questions been answered?

Speaker 1: 28:05

I don't think I have any questions right now, but I think I think this is something we're going to need to continue to talk and build upon, because I think this is the missing part of intuitive eating that so many people are missing. It's like how do you get to the next stage?

Speaker 2: 28:23

Yeah, and I have to say I think I am a bit controversial in the non-dieting space in that I do talk about health. In fact it's quite contrary the idea that you would talk about health. But I do think there is a point where I think we have a happy weight, and what I mean by that is like the BMI is BS. You know I feel that way, but we all have a weight and it's probably not what you think. It is where your body just feels good. If we're underweight, we get cold really easily. If we have more weight than is comfortable for our body, you might find you get really sweaty all the time because there's a little bit too much insulation going on. It's little things like that. Once you've kind of got that equilibrium going, you're going to find your joints aren't getting sore or you're not losing hair if you don't have enough weight. There are these little symptoms on either side of the spectrum where you're kind of going.

Speaker 2: 29:13

I do want to feel comfortable in my body and I think this is where I deviate. I think you're allowed to go. I want to feel comfortable in my body, but I think we can make healthy decisions that aren't related to weight. That might have a side effect side impact on your weight and that is perfectly okay. So, jenna, let's keep working out how to get to this. Everyone listening to this. I hope this is helpful. We are still working it out and I would really, really really like your help If you have questions, ideas, thoughts, things you think that can help illuminate this next step for us, so we can all crack this code together.

Speaker 1: 29:45

So problems that you're having, like things, that roadblocks, because like this is like what are the things stopping you that we need to work out the solution to Please send us a listener question If you'd like to send through a question.

Speaker 1: 29:58

we'd be so happy. There's a link in the show notes where you can click and you can send your voice note listener question straight to the podcast and we'll be so, so grateful, because this is a huge thing and I don't know the answers and I would also like them, so help us work it out.

Speaker 2: 30:15

We are going to get there. Thank you everyone for listening. We hope you liked today's episode. If you did, please tell your friends. If you don't, shh. Anyway, we'll see you next time. Thanks everyone.